Fair Coin Flip

Many ages ago I owned and operated the site electronicliberty.com with a friend.  Below is a somewhat comical article we wrote on Fair Coin Flip that existed on that site.  It first existed as a group research paper we were suppose to write in the TSM program at MSU and we decided to gamble and submit it in story format.  Our professor said we should have failed for not following directions, but it was too good so he gave us a “B”.    I thought I would open up the time capsule and share some  of these oldies but goodies.  It is also available on the WaybackMachine.

The Fair Coin Flip encryption protocol was designed to allow two untrusted parties to communicate with each other in a secure and “trustworthy” manner. This article demonstrates the protocol step by step in an entertaining story format.

Fair Coin Flip

It all started one evening when two students were on the phone debating how they should write a paper on the Fair Coin Flip protocol.
Derek being the more responsible of the two suggested that they immediately convene to a writing conducive environment and write the paper together. Craig suggested an alternative, he would go to sleep and Derek would write the paper. Derek being a quick witted fellow soon realized that this proposal was not fair. However, he was intrigued at the idea of only one person writing the paper, because he had other things he wanted to do as well. After a short pause in the conversation Derek suggested that they flip a coin to decide who would be the unlucky student to write the paper.
Craig was also intrigued by this proposition because he was of a gambling persuasion and did not mind letting the dice fly. Taking initiative Craig exclaimed, “That sounds wonderful, I have a coin right here. Call it in the air.” Derek yelled into the phone, “Tails.”

The coin landed and Craig quickly stated that he was sorry but the coin had indeed landed on Heads and that he was going to bed. Derek was somewhat flustered at the recent events, but collected himself and began on the daunting task of writing a paper about Fair Coin Flips.

One page into writing the paper on Fair Coin Flips, Derek came to the realization that based on the information he had read there was a possibility that the process that had taken place earlier over the phone may not have been fair. He trusted Craig and did not question that then, but now he realized that Craig’s desire to go to sleep could have persuaded him to lie. Derek also realized that there was nothing in the previous protocol that ensured him that the flip was random and fair. Although, Craig was a trusted friend there was the possibility that he had cheated and that he should be the one doing the paper. Once again Derek contacted Craig. Craig answered his phone, and inquired as to why Derek was ruining his sleep. Derek quickly explained his doubts as to whether or not the events that had taken place earlier had been fair and that they needed to redo the coin flip. Craig was not at all happy about this proposition, but did feel somewhat guilty because he had in fact cheated on the coin toss. Since Craig had not done any research about the Fair Coin Flip Derek took it upon himself to describe the problem that presented itself.

Derek and Craig had come across a common problem. How could they flip a coin over the phone and make it fair? M. Blum was also fascinated with this same problem. He realized that there must be something in place to make the result random even if one of the parties cheated. He believed that this process could be solved with the Exclusive Or process. Now we go back to the story.

Craig was quite perplexed and not entirely focused on what was going on, but he agreed that in the spirit of fairness that they should come up with a solution that left both parties satisfied that the coin flip was fair. Derek presented a new solution to provide them with a fair coin flip. Derek said, “Craig, do you remember a few weeks ago when we did the lab report over ‘Exclusive Or’.” Craig vaguely remembered the process and Derek quickly updated him on how they would use the Exclusive Or process to make the coin flip fair. He helped Craig remember that Exclusive Or was based on alternate bits. They would be easily applicable to a coin since heads and tails could be represented by alternate bits (0 and 1). He quickly refreshed Craig on how the Exclusive Or process calculations were made by showing the four different combinations of two alternate bits. The total combinations are easily calculated by taking the number of possibilities and raising it to a power equal to the sample size. The Exclusive Or operation applies to two bits. Each bit has two possibilities. This means that the total possibilities is 2^2 which is equal to 4. The Exclusive Or operations then result as follows.

The Exclusive Or process works like this:
0 XOR 0 = 0
0 XOR 1 = 1
1 XOR 0 = 1
1 XOR 1 = 0

As stated before, by M. Blum, in the article, “Coin Flipping By Telephone: A Protocol for Solving Impossible Problems”, in the proceedings of the 24th IEEE computer conference, published in 1982, presented a simple protocol for coin flips ( http://www.disappearing-inc.com/F/faircointoss.html ). Blum’s protocol was highly recognized and was used in networking protocols to determine which party would complete which side of the handshake. This was the same protocol that Derek intended to use. Derek proposed that each of them would flip a coin at the same time while on the phone. After they had flipped the coins they would take the results of the flips and XOR them. The outcome of this process would represent the fair coin flip result. Derek quickly made things simple by saying that Heads would be equal to one and that Tails would be equal to 0. Craig pondered over Derek’s proposal and decided to put it to a test. After all, if one of them truly gave a random answer then the outcome of the XOR would be truly random and thus fair. They also agreed that after the XOR process that a result of 1 would mean that Craig would have to do the paper and a final result of 0 would mean that Derek would have to do the paper.

Derek and Craig each procured a coin and flipped them simultaneously. Derek quickly asked Craig what result he had. Craig responded that he had indeed flipped Tails. Derek told Craig that the result of his coin flip had been Heads and therefore after doing the XOR process it meant that Craig was now going to have to do the paper.

To make certain that the process had indeed been legitimate Craig wrote out the process mathematically.

Heads = 1 = Derek Sleeps
Tails = 0 = Craig Sleeps

Craig’s Flip = Tails = 0
Derek’s Flip = Heads = 1
XOR = 1
After seeing that the math was correct Craig realized that he was now going to have to write the paper. He turned on his computer and downloaded the portion of the paper that Derek had done and started writing.

After adding two more pages to the previous page that Derek had written, Craig realized that there was a significant flaw in the protocol that they had followed for the second coin flip. Craig immediately realized that his night of sleep could have been unfairly taken away from him due to Derek’s previous knowledge of the flaw. After all, Derek did seem strangely excited to put the paper off on Craig and sleep. So once again Craig called Derek and explained his discontent with the previous protocol that they had followed. Craig explained that they needed a secure system that fulfilled the criteria set forth by Manuel Blum, outlined as the following:

1) Craig must make the coin flip before Derek makes his guess.
2) Craig must not be able to change his answer after hearing Derek’s guess.
3) Derek must not be able to know the result of the coin flip before he makes his guess.

So once again they needed to find a system that would result in a fair coin flip for both of them. Derek formulated a revised fair coin flip protocol that incorporated the one way hash program that they had written previously. The idea for the protocol came from an articled he had read by Joe Kilian titled, “Uses of Randomness in Algorithms and Protocols”, from MIT press in 1990. Kilian realized that there had to be something truly random in the protocol in order for the outcome to be completely fair. Derek used this theory of randomness coupled with a one way hash function. This protocol would require these things:

1. Derek would choose a number at random between -infinity and infinity (which equals R), assuming that the number was totally random.
2. Derek would then put the number (R) into the one way hash generator (F) and send the result to Craig (Y).
3. Craig would then decide whether or not he thought the random number was even or odd. Thus, giving him a 50/50 chance at guessing the right number. The same chances of a fair coin flip.
4. Derek would then send the result of the coin flip to Craig.
5. Derek would also send the random number (R) to Craig.
6. Craig would then input the random number into the one way hash and see if his guess was correct and be assured that the process was done fairly.
Craig agreed that this protocol seemed secure, but learning from the two previous experiences opted to find out the flaws, if any, before they put the protocol into practice. He came up with these flaws:

1) If the one way hash generator could have two inputs that resulted in the same hash it would be possible for Derek to send that hash to him and then pick whichever input would result in his best interest after Craig had sent his guess to Derek. Derek will then be able to cheat Craig all of the time.
2) If the one way hash generator’s result has any correlation with the input and Craig is aware of this flaw, his probability of guessing the number increases beyond 50/50 thus, resulting in an unfair coin flip. Craig will be able to cheat Derek some of the time.

Ex) Suppose that experimentation shows that when an odd number is put into a given hash it will generate an even numbered hash more often than an odd number hash. This means that when an even numbered hash result is sent, the recipient knows that the input was probably odd and thus increases his chances of guessing correctly. We know that a his chances should be 50% if all is truly fair, but since his chances have increased we know that he can cheat the sender based on odds. He will not be able to guess correctly every time, but having knowledge of correlation between an input and the corresponding hash does create an advantage.

Craig realized that if either of them were capable of finding two inputs that would result in the same hash, or finding the correlation between the input and the corresponding hash that they would not need to do this research paper and therefore it was very likely that a fair coin flip would result. He was confident that the knowledge it would take to exploit these flaws was beyond their current capacity, but Craig set forth to find a solution that was flawless. After all eight hours of sleep was at stake. Craig proposed that they incorporate the use of PGP (Pretty Good Privacy). He had also read the article by Kilian and understood that by using keys they could eliminate one of the party’s ability to make his decision based on the others party’s decision. He decided that they must follow these guidelines:

1. Derek will generate two messages one that contains a Heads and a random number value (M1) and one that contains a Tails value and a random number (M2). Derek will then encrypt (Ed) each message using his public key (provided by PGP) and send both to Craig.
2. Craig will then choose one of the messages at random and encrypt (Ec) his answer with his public key (provided by PGP) and send it to Derek.
3. Derek will then decrypt (Dd) his public key encryption with his private key and send that back to Craig.
4. Craig can then decrypt (Dc) using his public key encryption with his private key and see the result.
5. Craig then sends the result back to Derek and he can verify that the message is equal to one of the two messages that he sent initially.
6. Craig and Derek then reveal their private keys to each other to assure that there was no cheating.
Derek thought that the system was very secure and the only flaw with this protocol would be if either party knew the other’s private key. He explained these flaws as follows:

1. If Craig knew Derek’s private key prior to making his guess, Craig would be able to decrypt the messages and then chose the one that best suited his desires. He would then re-encrypt it with Derek’s public key (which everyone has access to) and then encrypts it with his own private key. Craig has cheated the system and Derek will never know.
2. If Derek knew Craig’s public key prior to sending the messages he could force Craig into choosing whichever value he wanted. For instance, if he wanted Craig to chose Heads he would send both messages as Tails from the beginning. Craig would then chose at random and send his answer back to Derek. Derek would then decrypt the answer with Craig’s private key and his own to reveal the original message. He then changes Tails to Heads and encrypts it with Craig’s public key and sends it back. Derek has cheated the system and Craig will never know.
Derek did not think that it was very probable that Craig had acquired his Private Key, nor did Craig think that Derek had his Private Key. Therefore they both decided that this would be a totally secure and fair way to decide who should write the paper. Before they flipped the coin they both realized that throughout the arduous process of trying to decide who would be left to write the paper on the fair coin flip, they had indeed acquired all of the information necessary to write a stellar paper.

Now we will recap the events that took place during Derek and Craig’s expedition to achieving the fair coin flip from remote locations. This can be done using XOR, One way Hash functions, or Public-Key Private-Key Cryptography. With XOR we realized that there were many flaws when only using two parties (Craig and Derek). This was because one of the participants could make their decision based on their knowledge of the other participants answer. This problem could have been resolved by having a trusted third party in the middle to hold the answers, concealing them from both parties. Then this trusted third party could use the XOR process and then produce the fair results. Assuming that there are only two parties available then the one way hash or public-key private-key cryptography would have to suffice.

The one way hash and public-key private-key protocols do have some flaws, but the chances of someone being able to exploit these flaws are minuscule. Therefore, each of these methods can be considered a secure way to perform a fair coin flip from remote locations between two parties. The idea of a fair coin flip gave way to a new method of security and it has evolved into a newer method that expands the fair coin flip into a multi party conversation. The end result being Mental Poker.

When Blum came up with the idea for fair coin flipping he actually developed a new thought process to approach network security. This thought process is what allows un-trusted parties to develop a line of communication without a bias. The analogy of the coin flip done while all parties are physically present is the perfect state of fairness and randomness at work. Therefore, it was necessary to develop a protocol that could produce this same amount of fairness and randomness without the need for both parties to witness it. Using the one way hash and public-key/private-key methods it is not necessary for either participant to trust the other because the protocol erases the need for trust. In effect, producing the same amount of fairness that is necessary to do a real-time coin flip. In conclusion: the fair coin flip thought process can be applied to anything and is necessary for developing successful protocols that deal with the issues of trust.

Schneier, Bruce. Applied Cryptography New York John Wile and Sons Inc. 1996
http://www.disappearing-inc.com/F/faircointoss.html February 20, 2004


How To Use: IPTables (Beginner)

Many ages ago I owned and operated the site electronicliberty.com with a friend.  Below is an article we wrote on IPTables that existed on that site.  I thought I would open up the time capsule and share some  of these oldies but goodies.  It is also available on the WaybackMachine.

How To Use: IPTables (Beginner)

IPTables TutorialIPTables is a stateful firewall service that comes standard on Linux machines. It is a very useful and powerful tool that can be used for packet filtering, stateful filtering, and NAT’ing. There are many advantages to using IPtables, but it is very important to configure the service correctly or serious problems could arise.

To understand the following tutorial it should be noted that we will be running a script to execute the firewall rules in the IPTables service on RedHat version 9.0. The very first thing that we will do with this script is to clear out the default rules that are already running in IPTables. Also, for a definitive idea of what IPTables does please refer to the MAN pages that concern IPTables. To begin we will find out whether or not IPTables is currently running on your Linux box. To do this you will type the following command into the command line:

[root@e-Liberty root]# service iptables status

This should tell you whether or not IPTables is currently running. Note: that servicecommand status will on work with RedHat.

Regardless of whether or not it is running we can continue on in our venture to create new firewall rules.

Create a file in the root directory called firewall with the following command:

[root@e-Liberty root]# touch /firewall

We will use this file for editing rules and then when we are finished we can add it to the /etc/rc.d/rc.local (Adding the file here will ensure that the rules are put into place every time the computer is booted). It is always a good idea to make changes to an arbitrary file and then apply those changes after verifying its validity to allow for easier troubleshooting.

Open the file you just created with your favorite text editor. During this tutorial we will use vim. Open the file by typing the following:

[root@e-Liberty root]# vim /firewall

This should open a blank document ready for editing. Now type the following:

!/bin/sh #Remove the current rules from IPTables iptables –F #Create Policy for IPTables iptables –policy INPUT DROP iptables –policy OUTPUT DROP iptables –policy FORWARD DROP

Hit the Esc key on your keyboard and the type:


(NOTE: this is the process to save a file using vim, use this process each time you are asked to save).

Now that your script is saved you will need to make sure that it is executable, type:

[root@e-Liberty root]# chmod 700 /firewall

To see the affect that our script can have we will now stop iptables from running and ping a machine. Type:

[root@e-Liberty root]# service iptables stop

Iptables is no longer running, therefore the firewall is down and the machine is totally vulnerable to everything (assuming there aren’t any other firewalls running on the machine). Type:

[root@e-Liberty root]# ping google.com

Type Ctrl+C to stop the replied pings from Google. If you did not receive any ping replies then make sure that you have successfully stopped IPtables and that you are connected to the internet. Type:

[root@e-Liberty root]# ./firewall

This will execute the script that we wrote earlier and load the rules that we wrote into iptables. (Note: Even though we stopped Iptables, loading rules will automatically start it again). Type:

[root@e-Liberty root]# ping google.com

Type Ctrl+C to stop the host unreachable replies. Amazing! Nothing can get in or out of your computer. Congratulations you have just made your computer an impregnable fortress. Unfortunately, by creating these rules we have made it impossible to access the internet, or intranet from this machine, or any machines running behind it. Let’s analyze the rules we loaded.

[root@e-Liberty root]# iptables –policy INPUT DROP

iptables is the service we are running and is how we will start every rule concerning iptables in our script, or at the command line.

–policy is the modifier that tell iptables that we want to modify the policy or one of the chains (INPUT, OUTPUT, FORWARD)

INPUT is the chain that we are going to modify.

DROP is what we want iptables to do when the rule preceding it is matched.

To summarize, if anything tries to come INTO the computer via the network it is immediately dropped. However, because we instructed all three chains to DROP, everything going out of the computer or being forwarded to another computer is dropped as well.

Now let’s see what our rules resulted in, type:

[root@e-Liberty root]# Iptables –L –v

This will list the rules iptables has loaded and the number of packets that have matched each rule. At any time if you would like to clear the counters type:

[root@e-Liberty root]# iptables –Z

For this section it will be necessary to change the rules in the /firewall script to all accept. To do this go back into the firewall file and make sure your script looks like the following:

#!bin/sh#Remove the current rules from IPTables iptables –F #Create Policy for IPTables iptables –policy INPUT ACCEPT iptables –policy OUTPUT ACCEPT iptables –policy FORWARD ACCEPT

Doing this will allow all communications in and out of your system to work again. To be sure this works save your script and execute it at the command line. Now try to ping google.com again. This should work. If it does not work then return to your script and be sure that it is correct and that you executed the correct script at the command line. Once you are able to ping google move on to the next portion of the tutorial.

Go back into your script and add the following rule to the bottom of your script.


Save and execute your script and try to ping http://www.google.com once again. You should receive a message after each ping attempt that says THIS OPERATION IS NOT PERMITTED ON THIS MACHINE. What you have done is stop any ICMP packets from going out of the computer. Essentially if someone tried to ping this machine it would allow the ping to come in but not allow a ping reply. If you have access to two machines on this network, change the rule we just made to INPUT instead of OUTPUT and execute the script again. Now ping the “firewall” machine from your second machine. You should receive the same rejection banner.

Let’s analyze the rule we just created.

-A appends the new rule to the table/chain that you specify, in this case we chose OUTPUT. After the chain is specified we tell iptables to look for a specific protocol to match the rule using –p. The protocol that we want to match is ICMP. The –j option specifies a jump this means that when this rule is matched it will do whatever follows the –j option. For example, we could simply tell it to DROP the packet when the rule is matched. However in this instance we decided to be more specific and let the internal user know that the network administrator does not allow pings to go out of this machine. To specify a message, use the –reject-with option. You can type anything in the text that follows, but it is probably best not to upset anyone and remain professional.

We have now developed a firm understanding of how iptables rules are created and implemented, for this reason we should now add a rule that should always be permitted. The loopback interface should always be allowed to work because iptables will block traffic if the default policy is set to DROP (even though it doesn’t actually generate packet traffic). Because loopback is necessary for several services in Linux it is important to allow this on your computer. Type the following rule:

Iptables –A INPUT -i lo –j ACCEPT Iptables –A OUTPUT -o lo –j ACCEPT

The option -i is short for –in-interface, the -o option is short for –out-interface. The matched option ‘lo’ means the interface named loopback, which is what we want to ACCEPT. This rule means that if the default policy is set to drop our machine will still be allowed to communicate on the loopback interface. This is a good time to explain how iptables drops packets and the ‘deny by default’ mindset.

The ‘deny by default’ mindset means that you will block everything and then allow only specific operations to be permitted. This was demonstrated to you in the original script that we wrote. Everything was set to drop, and nothing could get in or out. However, any rules that you append (using -A) to a chain will be compared to each packet before the default policy is enacted. For instance, if the default policy on the OUTPUT chain is set to DROP and we try to PING, it will not work. However, if we append the rule

Iptables –A OUTPUT –p icmp –j ACCEPT

The PING will work. Iptables will try to match every rule before it executes default policy.

Lastly, we want our firewall script to execute every time we reboot the computer. Therefore we will add the firewall script to: /etc/rc.d/firewall

Now we want to make sure that only root can read, write, and execute on the firewall. At the command prompt type:

[root@e-Liberty root]# chown root.root/etc/rc.d/firewall
[root@e-Liberty root]# chmod 700 /etc/rc.d/firewall

Congratulations you have completed the Beginner tutorial on IPTables.

The blog was inactive, but yet still active

The truth hurts sometimes, but I will admit that I did not make a single post in 2011 and now half of 2012.  Though I didn’t post for this period of time, I had many readers contact me to ask various things about my posts.  I am humbled that God has given me the opportunity to talk with so many over the silly things I blogged. I wanted to share some of the conversations anonymously.   I hope and pray that my responses were spirit lead and can somehow be helpful to others.

Real Questions & Real Feedback 3

Anonymous reader of my blog:

Mr. Mac,
I found some posts of yours from a few years ago on election and predestination.  You have no idea what perfect timing it was to read what you had to say.  I’m currently going thru some very similar situations at my church.  Other than MacArthur and his church, I really began to wonder if there was anyone else out there who believed and understood the sovereignty of God.  I was on the SBC site looking for it’s doctrinal statement and found a link to some your posts.  The history behind all this for me is this.  I’ve brought up issues like this and others in our church (a southern baptist church in mid Missouri) and I’ve really been given the cold shoulder.  I’ve been told I’m too controversial, that we don’t need conflict like this in the church.  I was told last week I could not lead a bible study because my views on predestination among others didn’t align with the SBC. The sad part is just last Sunday, rather than having a message from a preacher, we had some Xtreme Power group
come in and “raise the roof for the Jesus”.  It really was the most disgraceful display of the Gospel I’ve ever seen or heard.  The guy spoke only of how God loves us and wants a relationship with us and all we have to do is raise hands and come down and say a prayer.  The man never mentioned brokenness over sin let alone the sovereign purpose of God.  By then end with emotions flying he actually said he knew there were people out there with pain, (i.e. hip pain and carpel tunnel) and if they’d come forward he’d pray for healing. Of course my first question was does that align with the SBC?  The people in my church talk about free will and when I point them to 1 Corinthians 2:14, they just say I’m to divisive.

If you have a chance to respond I’d certainly appreciate it, but understand if you don’t have time.  It was really just nice to find someone in my area that let the bible changed the way he views himself and the Lord rather than changing the Lord and scripture to suite himself.

My hopefully spirit guided response:

About 10 minutes before you sent this email I was reading over some of my old posts about the SBC and predestination. I don’t find it a coincidence that I received this email moments later. God is good. I am happy to hear that you are opening up your heart and mind to let the scripture speak to you. It is so easy to read what you want to hear instead of truly listening. Let me be the first to tell you that I do believe that you can be saved without a complete understanding of God’s sovereignty. I challenge you to pray for your brothers and sisters at church and that you approach the subject delicately and with love. I also believe that it is an advanced topic for mature Christians and it can be Earth shattering for someone who is just breaking the scripture’s surface. It is a controversial subject that tends to create anger amongst God’s people and I know that is probably not his intent. What I can tell you is that there are others that share your understanding of God’s sovereignty including myself. I am sure there are others within your Church that may not be as bold as you. I also caution you to explore God’s word for other theological concepts beyond God’s sovereignty. I know that may sound strange, but I can attest first hand that searching and studying scripture in regard to predestination can become an unhealthy obsession and may become more of “proving someone wrong” than growing in a relationship with Christ and loving thy brother as thy self. After all, you did come across my Blog article so I already know your digging and searching 🙂 Don’t forget that there are probably other theological topics that Christan brothers and sisters disagree on and this one is no different. I think you are probably on the right track and if you have any questions at all, please feel free to ask me. I should probably write a few more articles in the near future. I feel like I have grown since writing those posts and would like to build upon them and provide some clarifications. If there is one thing I believe to be absolute truth it is this. God is in control. Nothing surprises him or catches him off guard. We cannot put him in a box based on our beliefs of the way He should be. If He wanted to give a man a completely free will decision then I believe he could do that. If he wanted to create vessels fit for destruction..he could do that. If he wanted to deny us grace..he would be justified in doing so. It is a mistake to say that “God wouldn’t do that” or the “God I serve is not like that” if it is based on our feelings and not scriptural relevance. I also know that there is absolutely nothing within my power I could have done to make an obedient decision to follow Christ without God doing a miraculous undeserving work on my heart. I think many Christians will agree that they deserved to go Hell. However, I feel that they only believe this because they are going to Heaven. If God were to go ahead and send us to Hell, I think a lot of those people would begin justifying why they should go to Heaven. So in the depth of their hearts they may not have a true grasp of their sinfulness and complete/utter reliance on God’s grace. I am truly truly deserving of Hell and to think that I am a Child of God is very very humbling and humiliating. Take care and hopefully I didn’t babble to much.

In Him,

Real Questions & Real Feedback 2

Anonymous reader of my blog:

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I am very confused, and have been trying to study and pray, but I still have so many questions. The first and most important is, how should this new information affect my relationship with God? My husband seems to think that the issue of foreknowledge vs. predestination is not something that is vital for us to understand and that it should not ultimately affect our relationship with God in any way. I have to admit, however, that the little I have learned about predestination makes me feel like I have lost the loving Father I have come to know and love and instead replaced Him with an arbitrary Disciplinarian Who plays favorites. I know intellectually that God is Good, and therefore anything about Him is Good, but I am having trouble getting that through to my emotions.

Also, do you think knowledge of predestination is vital to salvation? Or perhaps a sign of salvation? I have seen people who write that, if God predestined some, then He would also have revealed the truth of predestination to them. I have always believed that faith in Christ is sufficient for salvation, even if one does not understand all the particulars. If someone does not understand or believe in predestination, does that mean that they do not truly know God, and are therefore not truly saved?

Does the fact that I have given my life to Christ and that I and my husband and my children have a hunger and a thirst for Christ still mean that we are saved (just through predestination, rather than choice) regardless of our understanding of predestination? What about those who answer the altar call and give their lives to Christ? Is it just that the Holy Spirit has predestined them to answer the call at that time, and they are truly saved even though they may believe that it is they who are making a choice for Christ?

How should this information affect how I talk to people (especially my young children) about God? Can I still tell people that God loves them and wants to have a personal relationship with them? If predestination is true, I cannot know who is predestined, so if someone is not predestined, does God still love them and desire a personal relationship with them? And how does evangelism play into personal salvation? Does God simply ensure that those He has predestined will encounter someone who can tell them about God so that they can come to saving knowledge of Christ in God’s perfect timing?

In your e-mail, you said, “I am very uncomfortable saying that ‘God sends people to hell’ but instead believe that God sometimes chooses not to intervene (or chooses to quit trying to intervene when we deny him) and thus we are always responsible for our damnation. Now we read instances in the Bible where God hardens people’s heart, however it seems that it usually follows after that person continues to deny God and has already hardened their own heart (ex. Pharaoh).” Does that mean that we can deny Him when he has been trying to intervene? And does this mean that God gives everyone a chance to soften their heart so that the Holy Spirit can bring them to saving Faith, and only hardens someone’s heart after they have hardened their own heart for too long? And if so, how is that different than Arminiasm? I have always believed that God will harden some people’s heart when they have rejected Him for too long, but that there must therefore be some sort of softening of the heart of believers to allow the Holy Spirit to bring them to Christ. I suppose (now that I think it through) that I always believed that it was a softening of the heart enough to allow the Holy Spirit to act, not an actual acceptance of Christ through your own power without the influence of the Holy Spirit, that allowed a believer to come to Christ. And then that God will only harden an individual’s heart when the individual has already hardened their own heart for too long. Hence, as I have so often heard, “You never know when will be your last chance to accept Christ,” refers not only to the fact that only God knows the hour of your death, but also to the fact that there may come a time when you have rejected Christ for too long and God will harden your heart against Him. I guess if that is true, then God has predestined whose heart he will harden when, but I still thought there was a choice for the individual on some level, and that God would only harden the hearts of those who have hardened their own hearts for too long. What about Revelation 3:20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” Does that not imply on some level a voluntary response on our part to His call?

Also, if God irrevocably calls some, and that call cannot be refused, then why is it that believers continue to sin? Is it that before we become believers, we can only choose to reject Him, but after we accept Christ, we then have the power through the Spirit to obey but also the bent through the flesh to disobey Him? And if He won’t allow us to reject his call to Christ, then why will He allow us to continue in disobedience after He has forced belief in Christ upon us? (I know “forced” is probably the wrong word because it makes acceptance of Christ sound like a bad thing when it is the most precious gift He could ever give us, but if He causes us to believe in Christ without regard to our feelings, beliefs, or actions, my current understanding does not provide me with a better word than “forced.”) What about the parable of the prodigal son? If people cannot resist the call of God, then how are prodigals possible?

What about prayer? If God has determined before the creation of the world everything that will happen, then what is the purpose of petitioning Him in prayer. I was always taught that He foreknew what our prayers would be just as He foreknew everything else, and took them into account in His plan, but if He predestined everything without regard to human actions or feelings, then does He really answer our prayers, and how does that fit into predestination? What about prayers for the lost? If He has already determined who will be saved and who will be lost, then do our prayers have any effect on the lost? I have always prayed that God will break through whatever barriers lost family and friends have put up to a relationship with Him and help them to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, and I have always prayed that my children will accept Christ as their Savior early in life. Are those legitimate prayers if God has predestined everything from before the world began? And if so, then what is the effect of my prayers?

I look at my eight-month-old daughter and think that there are some sweet babies out there just like her who are destined to go to Hell, but then I remember that unless you believe that everyone goes to Heaven, which I have not since I became a Christian, then that is true regardless of whether it is because of free will or predestination. I am just still at a point where the idea of predestination makes my stomach churn a little. The world does not seem like as happy and good a place with the viewpoint of predestination, and I tend to feel more fear of God. I love Him still, and I am eternally grateful for His saving grace, but I feel as if I don’t like my understanding of Him in light of predestination as much as I like my understanding of Him in light of foreknowledge. That sounds blasphemous, and I don’t really mean it the way it sounds, and I know that I have no right to question God, I just don’t know what to do or what to think. Please help me understand how I can believe in predestination and still see the world as a good place and God as a loving Father.

I know these are complex questions, and I am sorry to take up so much of your time, but I appreciate any insight you could give me.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me and help me grow in Christ.

My hopefully spirit guided response:

You did a good job of explaining the paradox or what most people believe is a huge contradiction/competing forces when thinking about the attributes of God. However, as I said. I am a “compatibilist” so I believe that God can give man free will and predestine, even though our human mind wants us to pick a side, anything is possible with God. We read evidence in scripture that seems to state that God truly predestines. It often says that he chose someone for a particular duty before the foundation of the world. However, there are other scriptures like John 3:16 and the verses in Timothy that seem to state that God desires that all men be saved or that “whosoever believes” will be saved. Now we can try to explain our way around these verses for the sake of picking a side, however I believe that we should teach what the scriptures says with the understanding that what may seem like a contradiction in our simple minds, does not have to be a contradiction with God. We just can’t put Him in a nice neat box that we design.

What I believe your struggles will eventually produce is a genuine respect and fear for God. Which by the way, the Bible says we should have. I know, because I went through everything you are going through in regard to this topic for 3 to 4 years. Many people focus so much on the warm fuzzy stuff that they do not have the proper respect and fear. We all deserve to go to hell. That is what we deserve. How God saves us by grace through Christ is amazing and undeserved. Grace is “undeserved love and favor” by definition. So we are in no position to decide what is fair and logical in that realm because we only deserve hell. We are at his mercy and have always been historically at his Mercy.

Now don’t think for a minute that the Devil can’t use something like this to distract/depress you and remove your desire to be Evangelistic. We must share the Gospel and we are commanded (not asked) to do so in scriptures. As far as you wondering whether or not understanding predestination/free will is key to salvation, I would simply say this. When Christ told Peter that he would deny him thrice, how did Peter respond? He said that he wouldn’t do that and yet later, to his own surprise, he did. So he did not understand completely the sovereign attributes of God or he would have known that he would in fact deny Christ, and yet he was a chosen apostle and a major Christian leader. So my opinion is that it is something that you will inevitably battle with as part of Christian maturity. You also uncomfortably used words like “forced” or “able to resist”. Instead of me telling you whether God forces or whether or not we have the power to resist, why don’t you find examples of these situations in the Bible and come to a conclusion based on what we are told/shown. Don’t be surprised if you see both. Can you accept that both exist and that with God it is compatible? If not, then your only choice is to reason out of it or say that the holy scriptures are in contradiction.

People have struggled with this for years. I will leave you with some very old and wise words that I believe summarize my feelings perfectly.

“Now God knows who the elect are. I don’t. Someone came to Spurgeon one time and said, “Mr Spurgeon, if I believed as you do, I would not preach like you do. You say you believe that there are the elect, and yet you preach as if everybody can be saved.” Spurgeon’s answer was, “They can all be saved. If God had put a yellow streak up and down the backs of the elect, I’d go up and down the streets lifting up shirt tails to find out who had the yellow streak up and down his back. Then I’d give that person the gospel. But God didn’t do that. He told me to preach the gospel to every creature and that whosoever will may come.” That is our marching order, and as far as I am concerned, until God gives me the roll call of the elect, I am going to preach the “whosoever will” gospel. That is the gospel we are to preach today.”

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.