Predestinated to believe in Predestination….Irony anyone?
One of the most controversial issues for Christians is free will verses predestination. If you don’t believe me then you should have stopped by the McCallum residence on some Monday night when all the guys were hanging out. I have been blessed to have a diverse group of friends and the diversity doesn’t stop at religious discussion. I can already see the comment flood coming on this one. Many of you have had this free will verses predestination conversation with me and have always wondered which side of the fence I am on. I usually argue on the side that appears to be suffering, which obviously burrs my stance. So I am going to try to clarify a few things on the matter.
I will start by saying that I believe that God is in control. This is where I would be asked, “How much is he control?”. Let me say it again. I believe that God is in control and this claim should suffice. I believe that God has a plan and that his plan is enforced by his will. I also believe that his plan cannot be altered by humans and their actions since these actions do not operate outside of his plan. So what does this mean? Do I believe in free will?
I definitely believe in free will. I have the freedom to make decisions and choose my path. I live the life that I want to live day in and day out. However, freedom is a personal perspective on life. I am free because I feel free. I have free will because I have choice. Have you ever read a book? Have you ever watched a movie? Do the characters have free will? Do they make decisions? If we could ask the character would he say that he has free will? Would he say that he makes choices for himself? We watch movies and read books and at times we forget that the characters are the works of an author’s creation. They cannot escape the pages of the book. They are bound by that creation and thus “freedom” and “choice” are only words used to describe the character that was created. Do I believe in predestination?
I definitely believe in predestination. I said earlier that God is in control. He is the creator. He created the beginning from the end. I am a personal work of God’s creation and my acts of freedom cannot change pages in the book.
In short, I am saying that Predestination and Free Will are the same. They both accurately describe a work of creation. It depends on whether or not your asking the creator or the created.
This being said, am I predestined to believe in predestination? Are those that believe in predestination predestined to argue to those that are predestined not to believe in predestination. Why do those that believe in free will say “If it be in God’s will” at the end of their prayers. Irony anyone??
So where do we go from here? We live life as the created in our life of free will and choice. We look up at God because we are not capable of looking down on ourselves.
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i believe in flying spaghetti monster
i only kid because i can
brian is going to hell for believing in predestination.
andy is going to hell for believing in nothing.
heath is going to hell for farting in the office last week.
derek is going to hell for moving to KC.
that is all.
For a Calvinist, free will and predestination go together beautifully… if you separate the two, neither make sense. As a sinner, a man has a free will to do what he chooses, but that will is in bondage to sin, a slave to sin, dead in its transgression. He can do nothing to free himself from its grasp. He freely choses to sin and does not seek after God (because he can’t). Only after he is given a new spirit and regenerated is he able to freely choose God and love him. If God is the initiator of salvation, then he has predestined those that he effectually calls not based on anything they would ever do.
The Westminster Confession of Faith gives a great explanation of Free Will and Effectual Calling, which you can read at http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html.
Hey man–
I think that you are right on! It if funny that God has put this issue on your heart at the same time that he has put it on my heart and some other men around me in the ministry. Man in his fallen state is incapable of desiring God because we are incapable of good outside of the work of God in us. Therefore, outside of the work of God, we can’t obtain salvation. If a man believes that he “chooses” salvation, he is saying that he can obtain salvation outside of God which is “from the pit of Hell and it smells like smoke” as Steve Brown would say. I listened to a panel discussion that some pastors and bible scholors had on this issue. It was really cool and they put it allot better than I ever could. I got it off of John McAurther’s website, http://www.gty.org. If you will send me your e-mail address I will send it to you. Or just go to the resources page on the website and search the keyword “election.” It is the 3rd or 4th one down on the search results.
Have a good one,
Ben
Thanks for the comments guys. Yes, even yours John (I think). I am waiting for Brian to key in on this one. I think that predestination is most definitely a biblical doctrine. It is always good to see others that agree. I think some people get carried away with it (hyper-calvinist). I think others are scared of it simply because it may sound bad at first glance. The important thing is to realize is that we deserve hell. Every since the fall of man we have been slaves to our sin. And how could a slave to sin act out in righteousness without God’s intervention? The word tells us that Salvation is a gift from God through faith so that no man may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).
I too struggled with this doctrine at times. I challenge everyone to approach it with an open mind and God’s word.
The ole’ predestination thing ey? I see what you all are saying. The one thing that I think that predestination does is that it illuminates evangelism. What is the need to evangelize if one is predestined for salvation?
I completely understand why would you think that. I struggled with it for sometime. I believe in a means doctrine, which means that everything must happen through a natural process. In the great commition God commanded us to spread the gospel. The lord chose the gospel as a means to deliver his children. I have no clue who the elect are and thus I must spread the word as commanded by God. A person still must confess and ask Christ into their heart. However, the bible tells us that we are slaves to sin and we must rely on God to give us the faith to reach out. Remember, all good comes from God.
Many men asked Charles Spurgon what was the point of evanglism if we are predestined for salvation by God. He replied, that if you can pull up there shirts and and find the E stamped on their back, then he would not have to evangelize. I think you are right on the money.
Have we become so indoctrinated in our set beliefs that we leave the word out of it. We to often try to line other writings or people up with the Word of God to make it fit our mold. The word doctrine sometimes sends chills up my spine simply because it doesn’t always refer to God’s word but to mans interpretation.
And the elect are his children. It is not in his will that any should perish not one. If we are predestined then why didn’t he predestine us all? That would put God as a pick and choose God. That is far from the truth. Why put the fruit in the garden? Why put Bathesheba in front of David? Why could be asked numerous times when dealing with choice. If God wanted to he could have made us all robots to serve him. That would make more sense then for those who believe in predestination. Instead from Day one God allowed us to choose. Those choices are our own and God gives us numerous times to accept him.
I could ramble on about nothing really for pages. The ulitmate thing is where did the question of predestination come from. The word is used in the Bible yes. But in no way is it used to explain to us that God has some type of country club that only those he chooses are allowed in. Instead we follow people like Calvin, Luther, Westly and many others (INCLUDING BAPTIST). If you want some ignorant reading look at the “Trail of Blood”. Today in our area many of the old baptist churches have adopted things such as this and tried to make it fit the Bible. Lets put all that aside and just reach out to the lost. We will all (ME THE MOST) be surprised when we get to heaven and see how little we really knew.
Well Jamie, I love you brother and I you know I do. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. If you come around my house you won’t see to many theology books sitting around. You won’t see posters of John Calvin in a heisman trophy pose on my wall. As a matter of fact, I didn’t even start considering this crap until God’s word showed it to me. For you to say that is is Doctrine and not biblical is just not the truth. If you don’t believe that God predestines anything, then you must be reading a contradicting bible. There are so many scriptures in the Bible that shows God’s decisions taking place despite the will of man and we often get a sour place in our stomache and skip over them. I could list scripture after scripture that could not be interpreted any other way. You are a bible reading man so I won’t the list them unless you want me to (and no they are not taken out of context). I find it ironic that Christians are OK with saying “Thy will be done” however most of them believe “My will be done”.
I will meet you one spot and that is it. God may predestine events, times, places, people and other issues. As far as Salvation I will not compromise. You are all free to believe “interpret” as the Holy Spirit leads. I have never been known as someone that doesn’t search the scriptures. They are my life. I hold them most sacred. Salvation is an area that I focus on. Salvation is open to all that choose. My Jesus doesn’t work that way. But hey what am I? Probably a person that doesn’t crack my bible. I see that this is dragging out and that I am probably the one dragging it out. I think this might (once again I may be wrong) be what Paul considered “Useless arguments”.
Please forgive my intrusion into this discussion. I must say first of all that I am surprised and overjoyed at the depth of understanding and also the acceptance of the Truth as it is in Jesus Christ among some of the contributers to this discussion, if indeed I know what that truth is and it is for this reason that I am addressing this group. Those of us who have historically stood for the doctrine of soveriegn grace and an omniscient, omnipotent and immutable God have always been small in number. There is a stong feefing of kinship with the prophet Isaiah when he cried to God, ” Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.” Often it seems that we are left alone to “earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.” I do not wish to intrude on this discussion in an effort to change anyone’s belief. It is the work of the Holy Ghost which is the “Spirit of Truth” to reveal Christ to us and in us and school us in the things that belong to Him. The Apostle Paul gives us clear instructions concerning the revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood…” At time appointed the Gospel was revealed to Paul and so it must be with all of God’s dear children. So then to you who have already been brought to some knowledge of the truth, who have been shown what you are in nature and what you must be by grace, to you who have been given to comtemplate with fear and trembling the totality of your corruption, the vile sinfulness of your heart, and the utter and complete devastation of your fall in Adam, and your resulting helpless and undone condition, I write in hope that something might be mentioned that would in some way be to your comfort or edification.
To my limited understanding, predestination is simply a way of describing God’s soveriegn rule over his creation. By saying that God predestinated all things, we simply mean all of His works were known to Him from the beginning. Nothing transpires in time that He did not foresee and consequently determine that it would come to pass in exactly that way. We further suppose if He had not been pleased with anything He saw from eternity, He certainly could have and would have brought things to pass in a different way. To deny this; one must take the position that He either did not forsee the things He was not pleased with or He did not have the power to change them. If the Bible teaches anything, it teaches us that God is a loving and caring creator. I do not believe He would allow any of the evils that have befallen men unless He had and has a Good, Holy, and Righteous purpose in them. How could a God who is love allow any of the evil, pain, and misery that is in this world unles these thing were absolutely neccessarry to the accomplishment of His greater good. I do not believe that God made anything that He did not have a purpose for and that everthing He made is fulfilling that purpose exactly as He intended. To suppose otherwise would be to suggest that He has commited some error in His creation. How then do we explain the evil and sin that is in the world. Although God must have seen a neccessity for sin and predestinated or determined that sin would enter into the world, He is neither the author of it nor is He chargeable for it. God made man upright and without sin, but his heart has sought out many inventions. The scriptures teach that God hates sin and yet it is self-evident that God suffers sin to the extent that it is neccessarry to the accomplishment of His Holy and Rightous purpose. Consequently, God’s relationship to sin is always one of constraining or limiting sin. ” The wrath of man praises God and the rest He will restrain.” Consider Joseph’s words to his brethren, “You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.” Did God predestinate Joseph’s brethren to sell him into Egypt. Of course. How else could His promises to Abraham have been accomplished. Did God’s predestination force Joseph’s brethren to sell him into Egypt? No! Out of the evil that was in their hearts they willingly desired to commit this act. It was God’s restraining predestination that kept them from killing Joseph as they desired to do and would have done had not God put it in Rueben’s heart to interfere. The scripture declares that “He works all thing after the counsel of His own will”and that “He works all things together for good to those who love God, the called according to HIs purpose.” We must conclude that God has a purpose in sin and yet He hates sin and suffers it only because He is able to overrule the sinful actions of men and bring about good consequences to evil actions.
To argue that God does anything conditioned on the actions or will of man would declare Him to be a learning and changing God. Consider that if God is indeed perfect in knowledge, it is impossible for Him to know anything that He has not known from eternity. To learn is to change. To change is to become either more or less perfect. To deny God’s onmiscience, omnipotence, or immutability is to deny His perfection. If God is onmipotent (holding all power), nothing can come to pass except by His decree. If God is omniscient (all knowing), nothing can come to pass that He has not known from eternity. If there is anything in God’s creation that He does not know about, and He could change His mind as a result of learning from it; then what assurance do we have that He won’t change His mind about the redemption, justification, and eternal glorification of His elect. Indeed the prophet Isaiah declares, “The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand..” This declaration could have no force without God’s omniscience, omnipotence, and immutability.
Now in closing I will ask two questions of the writer who insist that God is willing that none should perish and that we should be out seeking the lost. In the scripture quoted from Peter says, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” First question: Who is the us in this verse of scripture and where in the entire Bible is God declared to be longsuffering to anyone other than His children?
My bible tells me that Jesus Christ came to seek and to save that which is lost. Second question: Did He or did He not do that which He came to do?
May this writing find each of you in the peace of God which passeth all understanding.
Humbly submitted,
Kenneth R. Adams
Mr. Adams,
We do not know each other but I do know that we serve the same sovereign God of the Scripture. The doctrine of election is not an easy doctrine to accept for American’s because we have never had someone rule over our lives. But if you look in the first part of Matthew 5 Jesus Christ says, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” The Greek word for poor in this case is ptochos which is a word used to describe a state of poverty in which a man must beg for what he needs. In my interpretations of this passage, Jesus is saying that one must be reduced to dependency on another, in this case God, before one can truly enter the kingdom of heaven. But if we are the driving force for salvations, we are not totally dependant on Him? This does not work with me. In my estimation this passage from the Sermon on the Mount does work with the doctrine of election because as sinners we are under the total mercy of God to provide what our soul needs, salvation.
My the Lord bless and keep everyone in this discussion,
Ben Cossey
Dear Bro. Cossey,
“A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.” Your words are a great comfort to me. Thank you so much for replying to my post and may God bless and keep you in a way that is according to His infinite wisdom and mercy.
Kenneth
I just want to thank everyone for their contribution to this discussion. I agree with Ben in saying that the doctrine of election is difficult to accept for some. However, as you can see from these comments, there are many that believe it to be the true word of God. I pray that this discussion will be used in a mighty way according to his purpose. God bless and I hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving.